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[ändere] The German / French name dispute
Désolé, mais vous êtes un peu à côté de la plaque mon cher.
- Ah! Restez poli quand même, Monsieur!! :-)))
PS: don't say that Alsatian is German. While I partly agree with you, I know that it would be insulting to some people who pride themselves on their regional identity;
- Well that's sad! But: truth hurts, sometimes! It is "Germanic", you say? - A "Germanic" Dialect? - You mean "Germanic" like Faröisk... or old Icelandic?? I would like to remind you of one thing: we are talking English here, not French! "Germanic" in English does not have the same connotation, the exact same meaning as "germanique" (French)!
To give you an example: try talking to someone in Alsatian in the tram in Strasbourg. Some people might be able to answer you, but everyone will look at you with wide eyes.
- It is funny, you mention the tram! One out of, let's say, five times I take the tram I hear people speaking Alsatian (mostly "Strosburjerditsch" - the local version, so they are not from the countryside...)! But why would I speak to them? But whenever I go to shops I often try to speak Alsatian to the shop assistants (because I find it absolutely boring to speak French all the time - and thus use just one of the options and anyway it is quite unnatural that people of (the same) "germanique" mothertongue would chose another language in order to communicate, no? Especially as I have learned the regional version!
A few old people still speak Alsatian, but it is (unfortunately, in my opinion) disappearing. The bilinguality programs have not really succeeded in reviving it.
- What "bilinguality programs"? What are you talking about?
I agree that German is a HISTORICAL language of Alsace and that ALsace is culturally Germanic. Even a "supranationalist pro-French Alsatian" like me recognizes that. But today, whether we like it or not, Germanic culture is fading. And young Alsatians don't really care to revive it.
- Depends who! There are for instance the "[Jungi fer's Elsasischi]"
FYI the names of streets in historical Strassburg are given in Alsatian (not German) as well as French.
- Yes - and why is that?
So while there's no denying that Alsace is Germanic in some respects, I think emphasizing bilinguality is pointless because local people (at least young people) don't really care and
feel fully French (and for the most part speak fairly mediocre German and no Alsatian).
- So this (speaking a "germanique" dialect - or German as regional language- and feeling fully French) is opposed??
Also, I'm not a "surnationaliste" or anti-German or anything of the sort. I fully understand that Alsace has a strong Germanic heritage and I believe that discussions on what Alsace "really" is are absurd.
Alsace will be both French and Germanic at least for several more decades.
But today, the trend is definitely towards being French and keeping Germany as a part of the region's history and an influence on its culture, which is why I feel emphasizing the German side of ALsace makes little sense.
Désolé, mais vous êtes un peu à côté de la plaque mon cher. To give you an example: try talking to someone in Alsatian in the tram in Strasbourg. Some people might be able to answer you, but everyone will look at you with wide eyes. A few old people still speak Alsatian, but it is (unfortunately, in my opinion) disappearing. The bilinguality programs have not really succeeded in reviving it. I agree that German is a HISTORICAL language of Alsace and that ALsace is culturally Germanic. Even a "supranationalist pro-French Alsatian" like me recognizes that. But today, whether we like it or not, Germanic culture is fading. And young Alsatians don't really care to revive it. FYI the names of streets in historical Strassburg are given in Alsatian (not German) as well as French. So while there's no denying that Alsace is Germanic in some respects, I think emphasizing bilinguality is pointless because local people (at least young people) don't really care and feel fully French (and for the most part speak fairly mediocre German and no Alsatian). Also, I'm not a "surnationaliste" or anti-German or anything of the sort. I fully understand that Alsace has a strong Germanic heritage and I believe that discussions on what Alsace "really" is are absurd. Alsace will be both French and Germanic at least for several more decades. But today, the trend is definitely towards being French and keeping Germany as a part of the region's history and an influence on its culture, which is why I feel emphasizing the German side of ALsace makes little sense.
PS: don't say that Alsatian is German. While I partly agree with you, I know that it would be insulting to some people who pride themselves on their regional identity;
AxelW 02:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)AxelW
German is NOT a regional language in Strasbourg, if you think so, then you are completely clueless and clearly haven't been there. All native Strasbourgeois speak french as their first language, some learn German as a second language. Once again, German is NOT a regional language, Alsatian is the regional language and is indeed a Germanic dialect. But hardly anyone in Strasbourg speaks it (it's more common in the countryside). You can't compare Alsace to Canada or Switzerland. Whether you like it or not, people in Alsace feel French and speak French whereas they do not feel German or for the most part speak German. There's no denying that we have Germanic names and all that, but that doesn't really mean anything. It's not because there are lots 0f Italian-Americans in New York with Italian names that Italian is a regional language over there.
- Bravo! Encore un bel exemple de surnationalisme alsacien profrançais! Je me permettrais de vous citer à toutes les occasions données comme archetype de l'alsacien niant de toute force sa "vraie nature"! Dans ce sens là: puisque vous êtes si convaincu de ce que vous écrivéz, pourquoi ne le signez-vous pas au moins??? Short translation: This is a very nice exemple of another very "German" side of the "Alsatian nature": even french nationalism (and of the most primitive kind) is done with utmost German perfectionism! You think I haven't been there? - I live there!!! (...and I signed my text so you could easily have looked that up!) And - I`m sorry but - it rather seems to be you who is clueless. It is no idea of mine that German (Deutsch = (official) Hochdeutsch + dialect) is the regional language in Alsace but it is the Académie de Strasbourg which says so - and everybody there who really has a clue (i.e. local writers, teachers, professors and the people active defending the Alsatian biliguality (French/regional languange))! One thing is certain: I have been in Alsace often enough to know about people of your kind, so I know you really might be Alsatian! Luckily not everybody there is like that - and quite some really do speak Alsatian (even in the city) - as I do speaking to them after learning it (by hearing and "doing") which I found quite easy because: it is German! Which means I really had to learn it because I come from 400 km downstream from Strasbourg. If I was German from just across the river I would not have needed to learn it - I would have spoken "Alsatian" (or something very similar) as own regional dialect!!! The local dialects of Baden are nearly exactly the same... In fact I think you did not even read me - you do not answer to any of the examples of appearance of the regional language in its non-dialect form I gave! La prochaine fois essayez de discuter un peu "to the point"!!--87.178.141.109 22:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)