Wikipedia:城市論壇 (全部)

出自維基百科,自由嘅百科全書

呢個係城市論壇 (全部)嘅頁面,係會列出現時所有嘅討論以便閱讀。去城市論壇睇吓城市討論嘅部份,又或者撳吓喺每一個小節中嘅編輯連結去表達你嘅意見。要睇吓喺呢一頁嘅全部修訂,撳喺上面嘅歷史連結,並依照螢光幕上面嘅指示。

撳吓呢度去清除喺呢一頁嘅伺服器快取(去睇響城市討論部份嘅最近更改)


捷徑:
WP:VP

歡迎嚟到城市論壇。哩一組嘅頁面係用嚟討論有關技術問題、政策,同埋維基百科嘅運作,被分做六個地方。請用下面嘅表去搵出最適合嘅部份貼文,或者貼喺「雜項」部份。您可以一次過去睇城市論壇所有嘅部份。城市論壇唔係一個喺唔活躍嘅討論中(喺歸檔後嘅七日後)加上最後評論嘅地方,跟住啲討論會再喺七日後永久噉移除。請喺貼文時簽名同埋加上日期(用~~~~或者喺編輯工具列中撳一下簽名掣)。

城市論壇部份
消息
貼文 | 監察

去宣佈唔能夠符合於社區佈告板或者喺宣佈嘅消息

政策
貼文 | 監察

去討論現有同埋建議嘅政策

技術
貼文 | 監察

去討論技術性問題。有關wiki軟件嘅臭蟲報告請用MediaZilla

提議
貼文 | 監察

去討論同政策無關嘅提議。請參閱:長期提議。

協助
貼文 | 監察

去貼幫助櫃枱同埋Wikipedia:詢問處覆蓋嘅協助請求

雜項
貼文 | 監察

去貼唔能夠符合任何類別嘅信息

我想…… 去邊度
一次過瀏覽晒全部「城市討論」嘅議題 城市論壇 (全部)
知道點用維基百科 幫助櫃枱
查詢特定嘅事實(例如邊個係第一位教宗? 詢問處
為某篇文章提出建設性嘅批評 同行評審
幫手解決某一篇文章所引起嘅爭執或者投訴某用戶行為 請求解釋
喺某篇文章加上您嘅評論 文章嘅對話頁
睇其他維基媒體嘅計劃 維基媒體維基元
知道點樣喺一本書或雜誌度引用維基百科 引用維基百科
報告複製自維基百科內容嘅網站 鏡像同埋分叉


目錄

多個7日嘅討論(根據最後嘅評論)會被移動到每個部份嘅分頁(叫做(小節名)/歸檔)。哩啲嘅討論會再喺嗰度保留7日。喺哩一段嘅時間嘅討論,如果可以嘅話,就可以移動到有關嘅對話頁。喺7日之後嘅討論會喺歸檔頁同埋主頁度刪除。佢哋之前嘅討論仍然可以喺佢哋嘅頁面歷史中搵到(可能會比較難搵到)但係唔可以搜尋到。

[編輯] 消息

[編輯] 「2006年香港維基人第二次春聚」邀請

邀請大家的維基人是:--Stewart~惡龍 (講講講!) 22:23, 31 三月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 2006香港維基人春聚 HK Wikipedians 2nd meetup 2006

  • 日期Date4月15日
  • 時間Time7.00pm - 11.00pm
  • 地點Venue水瓶座咖啡店Cafe de Verseau
  • 最低消費Minimum Expense:每位約$20 (飲品一杯)
  • 聯絡人Contact PersonAngus Lai

由於篇幅關係,詳情請參看這裏

For more details, please look over here.

--Stewart~惡龍 (講講講!) 00:34, 13 四月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 香港地Wikipedia板開板!!

--Jasonzhuocn...._交流 21:18, 6 五月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 500

粵語維基出到第五百篇文章,可喜可賀。 -- 07:59, 20 六月 2006 (UTC)

恭喜--Jasonzhuocn...._交流 12:31, 20 六月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] English 維基學院有人想學粵語

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Topic:Foreign_Language_Learning en:v:Topic:Foreign_Language_Learning#Chinese(Cantonese)-- Hillgentleman

[編輯] 電腦廣場對粵語維基的報導

響慧科新聞(一個電子剪報網站)裏面,睇到2006年11月7日星島《電腦廣場》對粵語維基百科嘅報導:

廣東話原來咁好玩粵語Wikipedia登場

港人上網習慣個個不同,有些網民喜歡本地網,有些則鍾情外地網;不過無論如何,總有一些人人啱睇啱上,最好完全本地化,令大小朋友通通易學易明。好似近年大受歡迎的網絡百科全書維基百科(Wikipedia)都因為本地需要,已推出完全廣東話版本,正如一登入網站即時見到「歡迎嚟到維基百科!人人都寫得嘅百科。」一樣,完全本地文化!

正文睇一睇

有關香港的文章,在粵語版Wikipedia的文章就跟正體中文版一樣,只是入文全以廣東話顯示;請留意內容中的入文:「考古證明,香港早響舊石器時代就有人住。响西貢黃地峒發現嘅石器同整石器嘅架生。响新界同大嶼山好多地方都搵到新石器時代嘅遺址。」石器時代的工具,在粵語版Wikipedia中將之改為「架生」,相信是以軟件將所有白話文中的詞彙直接轉換成廣東話的「傑作」!

「巴士阿叔」與星爺名留清史

年中hit爆全球的「城市故事」在粵語版Wikipedia亦有詳盡記載;「巴士阿叔」事件的起始及故事中四眼Elvis甚至上傳影片的中學生都全部記錄在案。除此以外,事件所引發的周邊故事,例如整件事件中巴士阿叔可能觸犯的香港法例都有網友詳細補述,完全是一本網上版的時事周刊式報道!

星爺紅遍整個八九十年代,在粵語版Wikipedia所記載的更多,同時因為以廣東話入文,所以文章顯得更深入民心,例如講述星爺電影系列中所有經典對白,亦只有全部以廣東話入文先夠全神!

記得周星馳在《賭俠》拍了一盒video寄給賭神的全部內容嗎?「昨日,我菲律賓工人行過街市,聽到有個賣魚佬講話有條友仔叫做賭神,係你。哈哈……我當堂嚇一跳,然後得啖笑。呢個世界,居然有人自稱為賭神,咁即係分明當我流唧?!嗱我就叫賭聖……」完全一字不漏,勁!

後記:

開發階段?

粵語版Wikipedia從三月啟航至今,雖然文章跟正體中文版的文章數目仍有距離,不過已經受到網民關注,最近的商人逝世消息已經有維基用家特意在粵語版Wikipedia中開新文記載,相信將來的粵語Wikipedia必定更壯大。

有乜好玩?

基本上粵語版Wikipedia與中文版沒有大分別,都是可任由網民修改Wikipedia上所有文章,唯入文後所有文字除繼續以繁體中文顯示,而所有文字顯示都以廣東話顯示,所以大家不難發現一些功能頁已經變成全廣東話詞彙顯示。

功能頁中,正文並不是指正式的內文,是指很「正」的好文章,另外「隨便揀嚟睇」功能就是由粵語版Wiki自由抽出一篇文章,所以有時粵語版Wiki過於廣東話化,也未必完全是好事呢!

時事輕鬆化

粵語版Wikipedia中仍然將一些近來發生的時事集中在「時人時事」中,例如最近北韓核試的事件中,粵語版Wikipedia以一句「北韓宣布響一個地下設施况面成功引爆冲一個核武。」似不在講時事的表達方式,令整件事輕鬆很多,相信能吸引一些厭倦Hard news的年輕一輩留意。

Wikipedia如何詮譯「廣東話」?

據粵語版Wikipedia所說:粵語,即廣東話或白話,屬於漢藏語系漢語語族的聲調語言。並於廣東中西部、廣西中南部、香港、澳門及東南亞部分國家或地區,甚至海外華人社區都有大量華人使用。不過粵語不單止在華人社區廣泛應用,更香港文化及南粵文化為中心,令到粵語具有強大影響力,可以說是目前世界上有較強生命力的語言之一。

-- Kevinhksouth 2006年11月10日 (五) 17:24 (UTC)

「因為本地需要」?好似應該係講「因為有粵語人士需要」掛……--Shinjiman 2006年11月10日 (五) 19:42 (UTC)

[編輯] 請各位留意下

請各位留意下正文提名中嘅新提名.....粵劇。--小為 2006年12月2日 (六) 18:36 (UTC)

[編輯] 政策

[編輯] 特殊頁

我想問聲特殊頁點樣編輯?好多特殊頁都未翻譯啵。 Mugi 13:09, 5 四月 2006 (UTC)

以而家嘅進度嚟去講,嗰啲地方係仲未翻譯嘅(呢個係需要管理員嘅權限,透過修改MediaWiki namespace去進行更改)。但係喺呢度好歡迎閣下去參與有關MediaWiki軟件嘅翻譯,去幫手進行翻譯或校對。當呢一段嘅翻譯同埋校對嘅工作完成之後,就會上載到BugZilla,由開發人員進行更新。到時就可以喺任何維基計劃中使用粵語介面。(p.s.由於我喺今個星期五有test,因此最快到到星期五夜晚先至會恢復介面翻譯工作。)--Shinjiman 14:03, 5 四月 2006 (UTC)
哦,嗰個Wikipedia:用戶介面翻譯剩係得啲獨立嘅詞句,連繫唔到上下文,所以都幾難翻譯吓喎,睇到頭都暈。噉我仲想問吓Portal同Category嘅分別係咩呢?我見到英文版有用到Portal,但係中文版(唔係粵語版)嘅就剩係用咗Category喎,有咩唔同呢?又"si"唔記得簽名添,呵呵。係喇,上邊呢句個"si"字點寫先啱呢? --Mugi 16:11, 5 四月 2006 (UTC)
Portal可以係叫「門戶」嘅意思。至於從WP:UIT更改或者從Special:Allmessages更改,佢嘅更改方法都係一樣嘅。只不過Allmessage係由 A-Z message 去排列;UIT中嘅字句係跟用途,按原始方式排列。但係Portal係唔包括喺MediaWiki嘅軟件中,有一小部分嘅message仍然要透過Allmessages去做翻譯。但始終應該先作好一個翻譯藍本(WP:UIT),然後先至到Allmessages進行翻譯,咁樣先至係最適而嘅做法。假如粵語維基詞典啟動,那就可以先用呢度翻譯好嘅藍本,再到Allmessages進行細微嘅修改,咁樣可以大大減少介面翻譯嘅工作量。--Shinjiman 16:37, 5 四月 2006 (UTC)
Portal係門戶嘅意思,不過從我等瀏覽者嘅角度嚟睇,佢嘅用處好似同Category冇乜大嘅區別,都係用嚟分層分類?唔知佢哋嘅底層實現係唔係完全唔同嘅呢?現時呢度嘅分類框架未完全建立,首頁嗰度淨係有個Portal嘅分層結構,Category嘅就唔多覺有……總之,我都係搞唔清呢兩樣嘢。AllMessages,又多咗一樣添,不過好似我都係改唔到嘅喎。係咪我淨係可以改到(WP:UIT)?如果喺嗰度改咗之後,點先可以睇到效果呢?我驚改錯咗都唔知。Mugi 17:15, 5 四月 2006 (UTC)
喺Allmessages改嘅嘢係即時嘅,只會應用到呢一個維基網站;而喺WP:UIT中修改嘅唔會即時更改,但呢一個將會上載到MediaWiki,作為MediaWiki軟件語言檔嘅一部分,嘅WP:UIT中嘅翻譯係必須經過翻譯、校對及檢查嘅過程嘅。簡單啲嚟講,兩種嘅修改都有各自嘅效果:
  • Special:Allmessages
    • 提供即時更改信息
    • 更改只對一個維基網站有效
    • 影響喺唔同維基網站嘅一致性
    • 只有管理員先至可以修改MediaWiki namespace嘅資料
  • WP:UIT
    • 制作MediaWiki使用嘅藍本,或者可以講做做『模』。做好後需要上載到BugZilla怍出更新
    • 使用字詞上較為一致
    • 會影響所有維基網站,包括從MediaWiki下載嘅軟件
    • 利用協作方式製作,經過校對程序,字詞錯誤機會大大減低,而且任何用戶可作翻譯
有冇睇過英文版嘅Portal頁,其實喺粵語維基嘅Portal應該會發展成英文維基嘅Portal咁,而家粵語維基啱啱至開通,相信未必會有咁短嘅時間裏面可以發展出幾十個Portal。--Shinjiman 18:30, 5 四月 2006 (UTC)
Portal畀一個主題一版過嘅總覽。方便佢去相關主題唔同嘅項目。而Category只係響文章分類,分完類就響下面見到。HenryLi 02:12, 6 四月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 楔類

有無人可以話我知「楔類」係咩?--Hello World! () 17:12, 12 四月 2006 (UTC)

"Stubs", "小作品". A-giâu 22:30, 12 四月 2006 (UTC)
慚愧,未聽過㖭--Hello World! () 06:49, 14 四月 2006 (UTC)
唔需要慚愧,因為係d好無聊、低b嘅人先諗得出用嗰d字詞。用廣東話作學術討論嘅時候都唔會用d咁口語嘅字嘅,明明有「小作品」呢個字詞又唔好好用,無嘢攞嘢攪。就算係日常生活的口語,都唔好有人咁樣講。有d香港人(唔係全部)就係咁低能,個口求其發得出d聲音都可以當係詞語。—之前未簽名嘅留言係由169.231.1.116 (留言貢獻) 響04:27, 15 四月 2006 (UTC)所加入嘅。
樓上嘅說話唔係我講嘅。留言之後請你簽名,你噉樣會令人誤會。-- tonync (talk) 15:22, 16 四月 2006 (UTC)
啱啱諗住問,(音sit3)同「小作品」原義有啲唔同,同埋反正唔係常用粵語詞,應該改名。-- tonync (talk) 16:04, 14 四月 2006 (UTC)
「小作品」同原文「stub」差啲。(睇下小作品。)「楔」好似(暫時)「填補空隙的東西」。唔係常用粵語詞係缺點。A-giâu 16:27, 14 四月 2006 (UTC)
日常廣東話係讀sip。係常用字。HenryLi 06:22, 15 四月 2006 (UTC)
日常用法做動詞多啲,做名詞好似唔多覺。--Mugi 10:45, 15 四月 2006 (UTC)
呢個同意。HenryLi 14:41, 18 四月 2006 (UTC)
呃,我講咗廿年廣東話從來未聽過日常口語用呢個字,Henry請舉例。-- tonync (talk) 15:21, 16 四月 2006 (UTC)
『你做乜做楔咗我個位』,『你重唔嫁等楔灶罅咩』,『度門畀風吹埋咗啊,幫我搵個楔楔住佢啦』,『你楔高枕頭諗下佢啦』,『搵張紙摺細佢楔住隻櫃底,咁就唔會'仡仡貢'啦』。HenryLi 14:41, 18 四月 2006 (UTC)
嗰個唔係「攝」(sip3)字咩?《國語辭典》解:「迫近、夾處。《論語·先進》:千乘之國,攝乎大國之間。」楔音竊(音sit3),只作名詞。-- tonync (talk) 17:42, 18 四月 2006 (UTC)

無論如何,stub原意唔係「填補空隙的東西」,係「等待用戶完成、可以繼續擴充」嘅作品,所以希望可以改改佢。-- tonync (talk) 17:45, 18 四月 2006 (UTC)

我覺得"楔類"呢個詞好難明白...雖然楔有"填補空隙的東西"意思,但係用係stubs上面好似唔係幾通喎。同埋,從來未係第度聽過見過"楔類"呢個詞;攝/楔野就多。希望可以搵個更合適嘅詞彙啦霍斯 2006年8月19日 (六) 21:03 (UTC)

  • Tonync,「/攝類」<-->「攝住個位之類」 我一目弟就明.我唔明大家有咩唔明. 有無人話過要一定跟足英文維基?Hillgentleman 2006年8月28日 (一) 19:25 (UTC)
  • "小作品" 好似向自已面上貼金噉. 其實,未完成者,不配"作品"二字. Hillgentleman 2006年8月28日 (一) 19:25 (UTC)
    • 回hillgentleman, 咁不如叫佢做未搞掂類文章. Meaningless 2006年11月12日 (日) 12:57 (UTC)

[編輯] Unicode擴展漢字

邀請大家睇睇Wikipedia:Unicode擴展漢字,有無啲咩需要補充,特別係同書寫粵語有關嘅注意事項。--Hello World! () 07:50, 14 四月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 廣東話正字

起咗版Wikipedia:廣東話正字, 重未寫好,但希望有熟呢方面嘅人幫手。呢版應該會幫到大家,響廣東話用字,唔同寫法之間作取捨。HenryLi 04:50, 15 四月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] Babel 模板

Template:Babel模板已經啟用,大家無論想響自己個用戶頁貼幾多個用戶框,都可以用呢個模板,例如{{Babel|zh-yue|zh-3|en|de}}或{{Babel|en|zh|fr|de|es|vi}},唔駛再逐個 babel-2, babel-3, babel-4 ...... 整得咁辛苦。--Hello World! () 11:40, 15 四月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 語言分類

剛啱見到呢段文,見到個大問題,就係以上只係一個日耳曼語族(Germanic)語言嘅列表,唔係德語方言列表。德語無錯係有二十種方言咁多,但英語、荷蘭語、丹麥語等係德語嘅方言嗎?
低地日耳曼語、低地德語,並唔係德語嘅方言。上表中只有9.盧森堡語、18.阿勒曼尼語、21.賓夕法尼亞德語,係德語嘅方言。其他只係日耳曼語族內西日耳曼語支嘅其他語言,其中有啲係近似德語嘅語言、有啲係近似荷蘭語嘅語言。
英國人就係將 Deutschland 同 German 炒埋一碟,用「日耳曼」稱呼德國。要小心唔好混淆呢啲名稱。 --Hello World! 00:06, 24 四月 2006 (UTC)

【華語/普通話】我猜作者的用意大概是要強調名單裡頭大部分的語言的編輯者都懂得標準德語(Standard German),就是說他們同樣可以被認為是「帶走德語人力資源的份子」,況且這些少數/弱勢語言份子的確可以經由德語版吸收所需的知識。至於日耳曼語族是否大致能夠對應漢語族(粵語、閩語、客語、吳語等),這我比較不確定,只能說有些漢語學者也認為漢語方言之間的距離不比歐洲某些語言的距離來得小。A-giâu 16:19, 23 四月 2006 (UTC)

日耳曼語族有個特點叫dialect continuum(方言連續性?),即係各個語言,某部分可以互通,但又通啲唔通啲、通唔晒。比如與德語較接近的低地日耳曼語、低地德語,就會同德語通多啲,去到弗里西亞語、荷蘭語等,就無咁通,再去到英語就肯定講唔通喇。(各位學過英文嘅維基人,睇得明德語嗎?英語同德語有60%相似喎)。

就以上日耳曼語族嘅特徵嚟講,漢語倒係有啲同樣嘅特徵,即係「通啲唔通啲」嘅特徵。SIL(參看ISO 639-3)就定出咗14個「大語言」(Macrolanguages),有時會宏觀咁當佢係一種語言(之下有各種方言),有時就會當佢係幾種語言嘅通稱。

但係,漢語同日耳曼語族好唔同嘅地方,係漢語係象形文字,而且漢語區響大多數朝代都有統一嘅政府,有流通全國嘅一統文字。方言發音嘅分別並無太過影響書面語。呢點就係漢語究竟係一個語言定係一個語族嘅爭論所在。--Hello World! 03:16, 24 四月 2006 (UTC)


不好意思,不會打廣東口語話,我打普通話好了。其實大家的爭論的起因還是因爲中國大陸民衆過分強烈的民族主義以及中華民族文化差異大的事實,其實這樣的爭論大可不必。Wiki的原則應該是方便所以Wiki的使用者,並最終達到“百科”的目的,為的是讓不同文化,不同語言的的民衆都能利用網絡得到知識和智慧。所以分支出粵語版Wiki其實並不是壞事,之所以沒有分支出“上海話”,“昆明話”以及“四川話”等其他方言版本,是因爲中國大陸教學從小學就開始定義普通話為標準溝通語,而普通話的普及是必然的,國家的存在缺少不了語言統一的存在,但同時必須容忍地區文化語言差異。所以,在保留地方語言的同時,普通話只是作爲一個政府官方代表語言以及在同一國家政治範圍内不同地方文化語言的人之間的溝通工具。諸如“廣東話/粵語是一門獨立語言”或者“廣東話/粵語絕對是中文的一種方言”之類的言辭完全沒有絕對性,大可不必在這些觀點上做歧義或者爭論。“中文”一詞包括的意義廣大,粵語被認爲是同古漢語在語法,漢字之用上最相近的語言,其對於中文的附屬關係是必然的,但在這裡,“中文”並不是指“中華人民共和國的語文”,而是“中華民族的語文”。個人觀點,請指正。User talk:winx2003 19:15 1/5/06

“普通話”、“上海話”、“昆明話”、“四川話”、“粵語”肯定係唔同嘅語言/方言,因為未學過就肯定唔識講。之但係佢地之間嘅分別,仍然比起漢語同其他語言為小。比如話,北方話同蒙古話嘅分別就肯定比起北方話同粵語為大。

「中華民族」呢個詞語都好具爭論性,尤其係離開「中原」較遠嘅民族,未必接受畀人歸類為中華民族。坦白講,除漢民族外其他民族使用嘅語言都唔係中文嘅任何一種方言。所以如要正式做分類時,應該用返「漢語」而唔係「中文」,用「中國民族」而唔係「中華民族」,就會比較清楚,避免「中國中心」。--Hello World! 00:21, 2 五月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 粵語輸入法

【以下呢個係廣告,如果睇唔順眼,可以刪去】

我之前整咗個輸入法,可以用倉頡碼同埋常用粵語拼音打出中文字,包括HKSCS所包含的用字。網址請去我個用戶頁度睇。--Hello World! 15:10, 17 四月 2006 (UTC)

你個網頁O係邊? -- 08:10, 30 四月 2006 (UTC)

http://code.web.idv.hk/ --Hello World! 17:31, 30 四月 2006 (UTC)

web.idv.hk 畀我學校個 firewall mark 左做 pornography, 入唔到... 0_0 -- 04:39, 12 六月 2006 (UTC)
唔係呀嘛-Hello World! 2006年8月26日 (六) 12:19 (UTC)

Here are two ways to input Cantonese to computer by pronunciation. One is web-based http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/webime_select.php, another is java-based http://home.comcast.net/~jbmbweb/cantoinput/index.html, Personally I recommend the input method based on jyutping(http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/essays/jyutping.htm,). If you are a native-speaker of Cantonese, you can learn and begin to use the input method in a couple of hours.

[編輯] Edict of Nante

Edict of Nante is supposed to be "Edict of Nantes"—之前未簽名嘅留言係由68.48.32.65 (留言 • 貢獻) 響02:24, 18 四月 2006所加入嘅。

Done. Thanx Anonymous. HenryLi 14:24, 18 四月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 有關"百度百科"

大家对百度的“百科”如何看?—之前未簽名嘅留言係由65.94.98.42 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅13:26, 27 五月 2006 。

我睇過吓,但係喺嗰邊嘅文嘅質量仲差一大截……--Shinjiman 07:16, 28 五月 2006 (UTC)
有部分內容抄維基中文版,差幾皮。Ykh 16:02, 1 六月 2006 (UTC)
中文維基個邊已經有超長篇討論。而家只係需要將百度百科呢篇野翻譯過黎。(最少都要列出條目進程、辦事團體同埋同維基百科之間既關係等段落)--Garytse 06:57, 2 六月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 粵語本字

好多人都以為粵語是「有音無字」,但其實係唔一定。我認為既然粵語維基百科,要用粵語來編寫,就好應該用正確的「粵語本字」,唔應該用俗字俗語或自創自造的字。為止,建議Wikipedia:粵語本字中所列舉的字為標準,規定編輯粵語維基百科時,必須使用正確的「粵語本字」。使用正確的「粵語本字」,會令到粵語維基百科更具學術性,更具發展空間及潛力。--encyclopedist (對話頁) 18:05, 15 六月 2006 (UTC)

其實呢度都討論過,係未有結論,暫時係兩樣都有。用本字固然係學術成份高,但係用咗罕見嘅字,大眾就難啲讀到。HenryLi 14:32, 16 六月 2006 (UTC)
  • 都無辦法。維基百科唔係「偽基」,如果粵語維基百科真係有心去用粵語編輯,就有好好大理由要硬性規定用正確的「粵語本字」。就好比中文維基百科不接受自創字,所以粵語維基百科都唔應該接受自創字。--encyclopedist (對話頁) 15:34, 16 六月 2006 (UTC)
現時用嘅都唔算係自創字,而係社會上有相當多人用。要推廣本字,只有響創作時寫多啲本字,畀人認識本字。寫作唔係法律,好難用禁止方式去改變習慣,最好親身示範畀人睇,點樣去寫作。好似以前人人唔識『畀』,將『畀』寫做『俾』,家下已經好多人轉咗本字『畀』。維基可以做嘅,係畀啲機制人去認識。HenryLi 05:26, 6 7月 2006 (UTC)

其實"俾"字同埋"畀"本身已經有,"俾"字通常攞嚟做譯音,而"畀"原意係"鼻","畀"字嘅假借意思係"給"(呢個係古語,而家演變為廣東話)我就認為兩個字喺廣東話都通.霹靂奪命震天傲龍,又名飛龍 13:31, 6 7月 2006 (UTC)

咁其實同"自"字一樣,畀假借已經有相當歷史,亦都唔會有當佢鼻咁用。而俾字有佢常用嘅意思,唔適合再用佢來假借。HenryLi 14:38, 6 7月 2006 (UTC)
  • 為甚麼不可以硬性規定呢?這不只是寫作習慣而已。舉例如你不可以在英文維基寫中文,不可以在中文維基寫粵語,亦不可以「寫作習慣」為申辯理由。--encyclopedist (對話頁) 08:07, 13 7月 2006 (UTC)
  • 個別用字同埋語言唔可以一齊比嘅。應該話,英文版同時允許美式串法同英式串法,法文版亦都冇規定話要用法國法文定係加拿大法文。所以,我覺得粵語維基只要制定一系列「可接受用字」,劃清邊啲肯定係錯(例如「x果道」)、邊啲算俗字但常用到可以接受(「俾嘢我」),就得。-- tonync (talk) 2006年8月16日 (三) 13:16 (UTC)
  • 不如,Henry Li 造個模板, 係每個新用戶登記時 簡要介紹一下.Hillgentleman 2006年8月24日 (四) 03:42 (UTC)

響今日刋登嘅明報度亦都有講「廣東話都有正字」。--Shinjiman 2006年8月29日 (二) 01:19 (UTC)

[編輯] 請問外文譯名點樣處理?

隨住粵語維基既條目增多,我諗係時候要諗下呢的名要點……最明顯係球員,中華地區只有港澳用得比較少標準漢語(普通話/國語)譯名,尤其係球員、牌子個的。係咪要學中文維基咁兩者並行(不過既然呢度係粵語,就會用粵語名做正名……)?不過咁喎,例如球員名個的,有的其實譯「錯」架喎,咁係咪採取約定俗成?如果連粵語都冇相應「譯名」,例如而家頭版見到既歐洲城市摩受采,咁就照用標準語譯名?--Garytse 2006年8月28日 (一) 12:04 (UTC)

如果你有留意的話,香港嘅新聞界越益傾向採用大陸嘅譯名嚟命名(尤其係地名)--Hello World! 2006年9月2日 (六) 09:09 (UTC)

[編輯] 粵語維基百科 = 粗俗維基百科?

似乎有人認為粵語就應該寫得粗俗,又或者不堪入目都唔緊要。例子:

個人認為以上呢幾個文章應該改返用啲更加合適嘅名(用返本字或者正式嘅名)。無人反對嘅話我遲啲就搬同改寫,當然有心人可以幫手搬先嘅。:-)--Minghong 2006年10月13日 (五) 00:26 (UTC)

  • 明康, 何以"賓周" = 粗俗? "賓周"一語何來?, 周公之賓??--Hillgentleman 2006年10月13日 (五) 02:46 (UTC)
  • 何以扯旗=粗俗? 勃起=不粗俗?--Hillgentleman 2006年10月13日 (五) 02:46 (UTC)
  • 如何定義'粗俗'?-Hillgentleman 2006年10月13日 (五) 02:47 (UTC)
  • 正式嘅名 = 學名? -Hillgentleman 2006年10月13日 (五) 02:48 (UTC)
  • 扯旗 行文客觀, 無辱人, 何以不堪入目? --Hillgentleman 2006年10月13日 (五) 02:57 (UTC)

名本身無話粗唔粗俗,係睇下點樣講。社會文化避忌一樣嘢,就唔會用原本個名,反而會借用其他名代替。當個名用得多,變咗要避忌,又借另一個名。賓周起原唔知,不過就畀人聯想起周公之禮,好可能本身係宛委之辭。啫啫可能係起自【雀】,係一個比喻,係同細路仔講嘅代用詞。扯旗好明顯係比喻。反而𨳍、𨳊呢啲以前越避忌嘅字先係最原本嘅廣東話。

睇內容似wiktionary,不過重未有廣東話wiktionary,留畀第日搬。 HenryLi 2006年10月13日 (五) 11:37 (UTC)

[編輯] 做 reference/notes/citation/footnote

  • 英文做嘅 reference/notes/citation/footnote 幾好,有guideline添。粵語嘅維基至少有幾種做法:
  • reference/notes/citation/footnote 叫乜?參考?注釋?注腳?來源?
  • Template:Verify source 又叫乜? 加哩個 template ?

請大家傾吓?--- User:218.102.139.196, 2006年12月5日 (二)

建議用<ref>....</ref> + <references />會好啲,因為呢個方法最方便,同埋使用咁多模。--Shinjiman 2006年12月5日 (二) 04:19 (UTC)

[編輯] 楔類(續)

我覺得用「濕碎文」都ok... Kaenif.Teh.Skiech -- Forget it! Just talk! 2006年12月5日 (二) 04:36 (UTC)

[編輯] 維基榮譽

粵語維基都開咗半年有多,應該都要整番個維基榮譽啦掛,用嚟吸引用戶寫多D文,提高下D條目'數'同'質'。參考:zh:Wikipedia:維基榮譽與獎勵en:Wikipedia:Service awardsakoo 2006年12月14日 (四) 03:28 (UTC)

響好早嗰陣有人整咗個Wikipedia:星章,可以呢個用來獎勵其他用戶。--Shinjiman 2006年12月14日 (四) 03:41 (UTC)
但係重爭緊D用編輯次數離獎勵嘅方法呀嘛... 如果整個嘅話,會提高用戶編輯的興趣... 唔知究竟係中文維基定英文維基嘅獎勵方法適合粵語維基呢?akoo 2006年12月15日 (五) 05:16 (UTC)
呢度邊個頁獻乜都好清楚。何必多事?徒増嗌交。---Hillgentleman 2006年12月15日 (五) 06:36 (UTC)
同意Hillgentleman嘅觀感,我響語體中文維基度都重係一位「助理編輯」,有乜嘢榮譽我都唔係在乎太多,總之有做過編輯嘅就會對維基有過貢獻喇。此外,我個人亦唔想見到一啲只有擁有維基榮譽先至可以做到嘅嘢,好似zh:Wikipedia:投票等,響語體中文維基度,呢種制度係一種唔好嘅先例。--Shinjiman 2006年12月15日 (五) 07:04 (UTC)
英文維基百科嘅方式,就係我覺得某人某方面做得好唔錯,咁我就畀粒星佢係讚下佢。純綷係一種多謝人努力嘅方式,唔理邊個都可以咁讚下人。而中文維基百科就用咗東亞社會比賽方式,用編輯次數又好,乜嘢數都好,就係要見高低。
我就屬意英文維基方式,因為佢係一種簡單,善意,自發,個個人都可以做嘅方式;獎星畀人嘅人通常都係睇某人努力嘅質素,唔係淨係睇量。好似中文維基要見高低,就要搵人評審,有時又會有人唔服,甚至搞到有啲人要睇數來寫文,我就覺得唔係咁好。況且,貢獻嘅質素係人人都有眼睇。
HenryLi 2006年12月15日 (五) 07:15 (UTC)

[編輯] 技術

[編輯] 粵語維基介面翻譯測試

響粵語介面重未正式搞掂時,可以先到呢度睇吓有關粵語維基介面嘅工程版本。--Shinjiman 08:02, 17 7月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 提議

[編輯] 首頁的跨語言維基連結

我認為唔需要列出咁多連結,應該學而家中文維基首頁咁樣,只列出同中文有關既維基,同埋文章數目過十萬既版本,例如法語維基。--Garytse 2006年9月21日 (四) 12:01 (UTC)

我都覺得有啲太長喇,應該可以收短啲。--Shinjiman 2006年9月21日 (四) 18:15 (UTC)

[編輯] 我建议应该有简体转换

我虽然睇得明繁体,但喺有阵时睇睇下觉得唔自然咯。

同埋虽然MAINLAND啲人上唔到个网,但喺我地海外啲人上到啊。 —之前未簽名嘅留言係由Weidylek (留言貢獻) 響2006年10月11日 (三) 01:01所加入嘅。

100% 反對!!唔自然係因為唔慣啫,哩啲係粵語,唔同書面語。 --WikiCantona 2006年12月14日 (四) 02:46 (UTC)

就算係有傳統字/简化字轉換,都一定要先解決本身嘅轉換字詞問題先可以用喇,你睇下zh:Wikipedia:互助客栈/方针#有關自動轉換標籤的檢討及討論同埋zh:Wikipedia:互助客栈/技术#zh-hk是否應該繼承zh-tw的自製轉換表?嘅討論就知。--Shinjiman 2006年12月14日 (四) 04:57 (UTC)

[編輯] 送你地維基一個新logo

http://i12.tinypic.com/2w7mtyf.gif —之前未簽名嘅留言係由222.166.160.238 (留言 • 貢獻) 響2006年12月14日 (四) 05:28所加入嘅。

[編輯] 協助

[編輯] 健康與生活

將毛公仔放入黑色大膠袋內,在猛烈陽光下曬3至4小時,除了可以殺菌外,還可以將什麼除去?

下標字== 有人話身體係酸性既話會易病, 但點樣先可以令身體轉做鹼性? ==

·

  • 食苦瓜得唔得?

[編輯] 雜項

[編輯] Only in places without credible Chinese linguists/America

(由 Wikipedia talk:城市論壇 搬過來, 當時修訂)

This Cantonese version Wikipedia is ludicrous. It's as if having both traditional and simplified Chinese characters in the Chinese version is not confusing enough, now add in one of the scores of Chinese dialects. Like it or not, Cantonese is no more a separate language from Mandarin Chinese than any of the other dialects. Cantonese might be good for spoken casual conversation, but it is lousy for formal or even semi-formal writings. The wording in these pages are not even found in local newspapers of Hong Kong. This Cantonese Wiki would be equivalent to an Ebonics version of Wiki as an alternative to the English version, or having words like "y'all" and "dog-gone" in the English Wiki articles. Wikipedia is a form of written source of information and should have no place for spoken variants of a language. —之前未簽名嘅留言係由68.229.152.169 (留言 • 貢獻) {{subst:#if:|響|}}所加入嘅。

無名氏君,語言同方言根本係無界綫㗎。你既然識英文,可以睇下Wikipedia en:Language嘅解釋啦。乜嘅係書寫呢?咪就係將說話紀綠落來囉,即使信報咁嚴肅嘅報紙一樣有寫廣東話。你寫嘅內容同個標題無啦更嘅。有好多語言學家係研究廣東話㗎喎,而且,語言學家都有嘅IPA handbook,裏面都有一篇係寫廣東話。都唔係好明你無啦啦拉美國做標題來做乜。HenryLi 04:17, 15 六月 2006 (UTC)
唔係好明你無啦啦拉美國做標題來做乜 It's a play on "Only in America", seeing Wiki is been hosted in Florida, get it?

Of course there is difference between language and dialect. And try to use any of these writing styles in this Cantonese Wiki for any formal publications, see if you will be taken seriously by any real editors. —之前未簽名嘅留言係由130.70.146.36 (留言 • 貢獻) {{subst:#if:|響|}}所加入嘅。

(雙語廣播)兄台, 蘋果日報入面, 陳也 等等幾個專欄作家都喜歡用廣府話直接入詞. language 同 dialect 的確係有分別, 但係界綫模糊.
(en:)Sir, a certain number of columnists on Apple Daily such as 陳也 uses written Cantonese in their writings. Although there are differences between "language" and "dialect", the borderline isn't exactly defined. -- 16:28, 15 六月 2006 (UTC)
Deryck, the example you gave is actually a good one. They are columns in newspapers, which are opinions of the author and thus tend to be more vernacular in nature. You will not find the main news articles in the same papers boasting such colloquial writing style. Words such as "嘅" and "脷" are OK for casual speaking, which is why I'm more inclined to tolerate them in discussion pages, but they have no place in formal encyclopedic articles.
有幾多formal publications根本唔可以作準,三苗九黎講既語言係都係語言,但無formal publication,有啲甚至係無出版過任何嘢。用formal publications來判斷一啲都唔客觀,亦都唔合乎事實。en:Language is a dialect with an army and navy,今日我哋會叫某一隻方言做語言,只不過佢背後有槍炮,有經濟實力,有政治實力。所以咁多人來爭論不休,想搵一個客觀準則,都係唔會有答案。因為分別唔係來自語言本身。今日叫"方言",十年後可以唔係。今日叫"語言",百年後可以唔係。正如百年前無乜人會用家下現今"正式"中文來寫嘢,佢出現都係政治產物。HenryLi 01:59, 16 六月 2006 (UTC)
Two main issues here: 1)What, if anything, distinguishes language from dialect; 2)Is the colloquial writing style such as that for Cantonese appropriate for something like Wikipedia?

1) I would argue that the "en:Language is a dialect with an army and navy" aphorism is subjective, not objective. Read one of the discussions for that article. Langauge is not always politically defined. The US and the UK are separate political entities each with its own military, and there certainly are extensive usage differences between the English used in the two countries, yet they are still both called English. You don't see a British English version Wiki, or an Australian one for that matter. However, you are probably right in that some people are trying to create languages out of dialects due to political motive. I think the fact that the only two alternative Chinese version Wiki are Cantonese and Min-Nan is a reflection of the desperate attempts by Hong Kongers and Taiwanese to find separate identities from Mainland China. Otherwise we might as well see 上海话 version or 四川话 version and so on.

2) I think you misunderstood my earlier point about publiactions. I did not use it as an evaluation for language status. Formal publication is in every way relevant and objective in determining if a writing style is appropriate for an encyclopedia. If the writing style and wording do not qualify for publications, then they are not good enough for something like Wiki articles, which at least tries to be professional and formal. Sure that acceptable writing styles are dynamic, but they are not neccessarily influenced by politics. Even if the Cantonese colloquial style may become acceptable in 100 years, the point is that it is not appropriate TODAY for formal articles.

—之前未簽名嘅留言係由68.229.152.169 (留言 • 貢獻) {{subst:#if:|響|}}所加入嘅。

如果你係對討論認真嘅,方便響最尾打四個~,即係咁~~~~。最好係登記一個戶口,因為都唔知上次講嗰個同答嗰個係咪一個人,而且次次IP都唔同。美國人講嘅英文同英國人講嘅英文,差別細到大家都聽到。不過,就算差別咁細,響英文維基都一樣Commonwealth English同American English之爭,只不過佢哋響呢問題有共識而已。好難令人信,"正式"中文,同粵語差咁大,中文維基會容得落粵語。你既然認為將”方言”叫”語言”係政治原因,亦即係暗示”語言”叫”方言”都係政治原因。所以方言同語言只不過係政治問題,並唔係語言本身。即係語言同方言嘅界綫係唔存在,爭論來都唔會有結論。你講得啱呀,有上海話,四川話版本來係好事。家下就係有人推動吳語wiki,希望多多支持。響呢方面,漢語族實在落後日耳曼語族好多。

從你個觀點裏睇唔到點解一種語言要有好多"formal publication"先可以做百科全書。百科全書只不過係用一種語言去表達世界事物。專業同正式係指內容,並唔係語言。況且,Wikipedia從來無話過係專業同正式,大家只不過按個指引來寫而已。而且,Wikipedia成功嘅原因係人人都寫,你可以揀寫,又或者揀唔寫。你鍾意放時貢獻你嘅時間響邊隻語言維基。與其花咁多討論呢講完又講,不如去寫下文。 HenryLi 08:10, 16 六月 2006 (UTC)

Henry, of course I am serious about this discussion. I already have two registered accounts with Wikipedia, one in the English version and the other in the Chinese version, so I don't feel the need for more Wiki accounts. Furthermore, I believe the registration of an account on the Cantonese Wiki equates to my endorsement of the edition, which would be counter-productive for my arguments. I will sign the comments with my English account from now on.

I'm not sure what do you refer to as the "consensus" between Commonwealth English and American English, but my point was that you don't see Wiki users creating separate British and American Wiki versions. Those two types of English would be considered dialects (even though they belong to different political entities) and thus do not deserve separate Wiki versions. You repeatedly state that distinction between language and dialect is nonexistent, except those imposed by politics. Politics is one of the factors defining a language, but not the only one. I would say that the argument of identical written forms of Chinese characters (never mind about the simplified vs. traditional characters, which is clearly political) is not without merits. That should be especially relevant here given that Wikipedia is a form of written communication rather than an oral one.

I use "(scientific) publications" as an example partly because that's what I am most familiar with (I am a biologist). But you can also find examples in everyday life communications. I assume that you are from HK. If so, you should remember (or currently know, depending on your age) the Chinese compositions you had to write in secondary school. The colloquial writing style and wording in Cantonese Wiki will surely give you a failing grade in those classes. That's just part of technical writing skills for appearing professional. Unless you tell me that Wikipedia is no more than a 八卦杂誌 (celebrity gossip magazine), professionalism in language delivery should be one of its aspects.

It sounds like you are saying that this discussion is meaningless. I disagree since it concerns the legitimacy of this whole version. In any case, I am merely voicing my opinion, seeing it's a "Free Encyclopedia". I'm not so naive to believe that my comments can result in the reversal of what has been done with Cantonese Wiki. But I do know that there are others who share my view point. Pseudotriton 68.229.152.169 23:39, 18 六月 2006 (UTC)

的確, 百科全書要用嘅語言應該畀人覺得佢係專業; 不過, 廣府話係咪就唔可以專業呢? 好明顯唔係. 喺香港中文大學入面, 好多講師都會用廣東話來教一啲好專業嘅知識. 咁就證明左講廣東話唔等同唔專業. 你可能會話, 佢地講之嘛, 又唔係寫. 咁我可以好肯定咁話畀你聽, 佢地當中有準備講稿嘅人一定有啲會用廣東話直接寫稿. 其實與其話用廣東話寫稿係一種唔專業嘅行為, 不如話為左令到人地覺得你專業而用"標準漢語", 其實即係北方話來寫稿係一種更加唔專業嘅行為. 因為人地話你兩句唔專業就唔繼續做落去, 咁就真係唔專業啦. 一個人講野或者寫野專唔專業, 睇嘅唔係佢用咩語言, 而係佢講啲野有無料, 精唔精闢, 獨唔獨到. 我地可唔可以放低 "維基百科一定要係用眼睇嘅" 呢個成見, 然後用睇說話嘅態度去睇呢件事呢? -- 06:08, 19 六月 2006 (UTC)

Once again, the example given by Deryck (翹仔) is one of spoken communication. Most languages distinguish between spoken and written formats, and this is particularly true for Chinese. Let me give you two analogies. 1)Almost every English speaker uses contractions (haven't, don't, I'm, etc.) when he/she speaks, including for professional presentations. However, such contractions are totally unacceptable for formal writing, from scientific publications down to high school term papers. 2)In what Deryck refered to as "標準漢語", which he errouneously equated to "北方話", writing in northern dialectal colloaquial is equally objectionable. Most people in HK are probably unaware that Beijing dialect (北京话) is not equivalent to mandarin (普通话). The former contains lots of colloquial just like Cantonese that cannot be incorporated into formal writing. When trying to communicate in a professional manner, the presentation style is as important as the content that's been presented. I don't see how one can suggest stop treating Wikipedia as a form of written communication which is "read by the eye" since that's exactly what Wiki is. Pseudotriton 68.229.152.169 02:07, 23 六月 2006 (UTC)

我自己都係修普通話嘅, 知道普通話同埋北京話係唔同嘅. 不過, 我地一定要注意, 普通話 (又或者即係我之前講嘅"標準漢語") 係由北京話變化出來, 為左方便全中華民族一齊學而存在嘅變種, 語音上根本就係北方話. 而且普通話某程度上比廣東話或者北方話自由度更大, 因為普通話同時兼容北方語系嘅詞語, 例如 "主心骨" (解 "可靠嘅人", 廣東人應該唔識), 又可以用南方語系嘅詞語, 例如 "炒魷魚". 其實無論廣東話又好, 普通話又好, 北京話都好, 全部都係講出來嘅語言. 而手寫同口講嘅語言其實又互相影響. 當我地寫緊語體文嘅時候, 我地唔通唔會寫任何方言詞? 絶對無可能, 因為書面語本來就係由口語變化出來. Pseudotrition兄以為我將北方話同標準漢語等同左應該係一個誤解, 我想表達嘅標準漢語個 "標準" 本來就係北京話變化出來 (可以睇下五四歷史, 嗰陣時啲文章好鍾意用個 "係" 字, 就好似粵語維基咁款), 所以佢語言學上算係北方話嘅一個變種. 我咁講, 目的係想話就算"標準漢語"都係深受方言影響. -- 17:28, 23 六月 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Wu Dai-You (THE teacher of Yang Chen-Ning) used the word"係" in his physics textbooks.129.49.88.119 2006年8月5日 (六) 19:30 (UTC)

最後想講一樣嘢:正如user:Lorenzarius,一個資深嘅sysop講過,維基嘅哲學就係作者要盡一切辦法修改自己嘅作品以形合讀者嘅需求,所以嘅然meta上面嘅實驗證明粵語維基百科會有讀者,我哋就應該寫。-- 11:52, 1 7月 2006 (UTC)

[編輯] 粤语维基有存在嘅必要么?

识讲粤语嘅读者绝大多数都识睇国语版嘅文章,咁未必睇得明白粤语版嘅文章,岂不是多此一举!而且(亻巨)哋所用嘅粤语汉字五花八门,比如同一个词有人写“嗰度”,有人写“果度”,有人写“嗰哚”。仲有就系:“而家”有人写“宜家”,到底边一个先系啱嘅呢?

—之前未簽名嘅留言係由125.171.192.85 (留言 • 貢獻) {{subst:#if:|響|}}所加入嘅。

來睇嘅人梗係識睇啦,唔識睇嘅人就唔會來睇啦,就係咁簡單。異體,異寫本來就係語言文字嘅本質。就好似英文色彩一字,你話colour啱定係color啱。而硫磺一詞,係sulphur啱定係sulphur啱?以前中文你就爾或者汝,咁你話你啱定爾定汝啱? HenryLi 13:28, 30 7月 2006 (UTC)

果度一定錯。果--> /gwoh/ , 但係所謂「嗰度」, 第一個字(應該寫成個, 唔需要口字邊)的確係讀成 /goh/, 唔同架……--Garytse 08:29, 31 7月 2006 (UTC)
要用書面語的維基人反轉頭用粤语編寫, 相信好多人都有心無力. 但不同中文水平編寫不同的維基, 卻非常合理. 正如ENGLISH 與 SIMPLY ENGLISH. 書面語維基人要努力, 粤语維基人都要努力, 要好頭好尾.--9old9 (202.86.176.169 10:29, 1 8月 2006 (UTC))

[編輯] What?!

A Cantonese Wikipedia? No one writes or reads the way they speak. Where is the main area for discussing the validity of creating this wiki? --70.30.59.2 2006年8月3日 (三) 04:26 (UTC)

你究竟寫緊乜? HenryLi 2006年8月3日 (四) 07:15 (UTC)
你依0的人好令人反感,唔識打中文就學喇,兩班人都係中國人又識中文...

你明唔明所謂"國際語言"係咩意思呀﹖59.149.91.57 2006年10月18日 (三) 10:43 (UTC)

[編輯] 我们为什么不需要粤语Wiki (Why we do not need a Cantonese Wiki)

Jianglong 2006年8月6日 (日) 16:41 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由194.125.97.61 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。

[編輯] 语言和方言,口头语言和书写语言 (Language and Dialect, Spoken Language and Written Language)

Yes, to a certain degree, I agree that Cantonese is a different language from Mandarin, as speakers of the two languages cannot understand each other at all if they never learn the other language. This is different from the relationship between Beijing Hua and Mandarin. While although there are also a lot of differences, Beijing Hua, as well as, say, Liaoning Hua, is still just a dialect of Madrain, since a Beijing Hua speaker who never speaks Liaoning Hua can understand a Liaoning Hua speaker very well and vice versa. When linguists tell whether it is a language or a dialect, they consider the mutual understandability. Therefore, most linguists consider the Chinese language as a family of different languages, which includes Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, etc.

But the point is, all these languages share the same writing system, which, as a non-phonetic one, makes this possible. You might think Cantonese is quite different from the others because in addition to the common writing system, it has its own special writing system as well. That's true. Cantonese is special. But it is only special in way people use it, not in itself. Every other Chinese language deserves a special writing system of its own considering that they all have quite different pronunciations for the same words. And some young people are now actually developing these writing systems (eg. Shanghainese, which is a dialect of Wu), especially on the Internet. Cantonese speakers created a number of characters that don't exist in the standard Chinese writing system. But again, every other Chinese langauge deserves a special set of characters as well. In one word, Cantonese, as a language, is no different from any other Chinese language. And although Written Cantonese is far more popular, it is still very informal like Written Shanghainese. We don't write laws in Written Cantonese. And we don't write academic papers in Written Cantonese, do we?

So, we might say, we have a number of spoken Chinese languages and a single formal standard writing system.

[編輯] 共享还是不共享 (To Share or Not to Share)

问题是,我们需要一个单一的共享的Wikipedia还是针对不同的中文口头语言有不同的Wikipedias? 我想答案很明显:一个单一的Wikipedia. 因为 The question is, do we need a single shared Wikipedia for all Chinese speakers or a number of Wikipedias for speakers of different spoken Chinese langauges. I think the answer is obvious - a single shared one. Because

  1. 这更有效率。It is more efficient. 我们为什么不一起工作?我们可以写一个更好的Wikipedia,它可以给我们更多帮助。我想知道你怎么创建粤语条目。如果你从标准中文“翻译”的话,有必要吗?如果你自己写,为什么不用标准中文写让上亿的更多的人可以理解?Why don't we all contribute to a single Wikipedia? We can make it better and it can help us more. How do you create articles in the Cantonese Wikipedia? If you translate them from Mandarin articles, why bother? If you write articles by yourself, why not write in standard Chinese so that billions more people can understand them?
  2. 而且这是可行的。It is doable. 一个能读写粤语书写的人,一定也能读写标准中文,不是吗?If you can easily read and write Written Cantonese, you certainly can also easily read and write standard Chinese.
  • Dear Anonymous, In that case, why do we need WIKIPEDIA in various languages at all? Why don't we all write in English? (Or, at least, write all the mathematics and physics articles in English? ) Hillgentleman 2006年8月6日 (日) 18:02 (UTC)
  • That's because we don't have an international standard langauge (or a standard writing system at least) that everyone in the world masters. But the fact is, anyone who masters Written Cantonese masters standard Chinese as well and his or her level in standard Chinese shouldn't be lower than his or her level in Written Cantonese. Written Cantonese is an informal writing system. And Cantonese does share the same writing system as other spoken Chinese langauges (such as Wu etc.) in the same degree as others do. This is quite different from a family of languages with phonetic writing systems. Such a non-phonetic writing system has a great advantage actually, hasn't it? Why don't we use it? --Jianglong 2006年8月7日 (一) 12:16 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由194.125.53.128 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  1. Jianglong, Using Guong Dong Wha I can say the same thing with 30% fewer words than when I use National Speech.
  2. It is a fact that we have forgotten many ancient words. That is why we sometimes make them up anew. If you don't like that, let me remind you that Beijing people also make up their own words. I believe "Hu Tong" is not of Chinese origin.Hillgentleman 2006年8月7日 (一) 16:55 (UTC)
  • Hillgentleman, why don't you write 30% more words and get a billion more readers without losing even a single one? And to be honest, I don't think Written Cantonese is as efficient as you said. Even if that's true, think about ancient Chinese. It is far more efficient than modern Chinese but it was replaced by the latter. Sorry but I didn't get the point of 2. Jianglong 2006年8月8日 (二) 03:26 (UTC)
  • Very often a student learns better by reading multiple sources of information, WHEN THERE IS NO ONE SINGLE BEST WAY OF DESCRIBING SOMETHING. Wouldn't it be great if one could read all three Yued Yu, National Chinese, and English articles, which supplement each other?Hillgentleman 2006年8月6日 (日) 18:08 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • I really don't think Cantonese Wikipedia works this way. Look at those Cantonese Wikipedia articles. Aren't they almost the same as those of standard Chinese version? I don't believe that there are so many differences between Written Cantonese and standard Chinese that one of them often describes things better than the other. And more importantly, if it's just a matter of source instead of language, an integrated source is obviously better than multiple separate sources. --Jianglong 2006年8月7日 (一) 12:16 (UTC)
  • Dear Jianglong, I write my own articles.Hillgentleman 2006年8月7日 (一) 16:41 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由194.125.53.128 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • Good. Would you tell me the reason why you don't write it in standard Chinese? Jianglong 2006年8月8日 (二) 03:26 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • On the other hand, some of the zh.wikipedia.org articles are translations from en.wikipedia.org.Hillgentleman 2006年8月7日 (一) 16:41 (UTC)
  • I have no problem with translated articles. Not at all. There are a huge number of Chinese speakers in the world who can't read English and vice versa. But as I said earlier, everyone who can read and write Written Cantonese can read and write standard Chinese in the same level. While at the same time, most people who can read and write standard Chinese find it kinda difficult to read Written Cantonese. If there was an international written language that everyone in the world could read and write as well as their native languages, we would have only a single Wikipedia, wouldn't we? Jianglong 2006年8月8日 (二) 03:26 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • The hangman article is one of the example that translated from English Wikipedia, and when I wrote, there's no article in Chinese version, meanwhile, somebody put this article without any modification into the Chinese Wikipedia. In my opinion, I am not suggesting users to translate the article from the Chinese Wikipedia directly with a little modifications. A good article should have some contents that is exclusive to the Cantonese language. --Shinjiman 2006年8月7日 (一) 17:06 (UTC)
  • Shinjiman, I am sure that's a perfect translation and I love the article. But (as a native Chinese speaker) I had to read the English version to understand it clearly. I guess if you translate the next article to standard Chinese, Cantonese speakers could still read it easily just as this one and a lot more people (like me, but perhaps cannot read English) could understand it as well. Do you find it more difficult to translate English to standard Chinese than to Written Cantonese? If not, are you willing to do me a favor?Jianglong 2006年8月8日 (二) 03:35 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • Jianglong, I am a native Chinese speaker (note that the Chinese means Cantonese, not Mandarin). As most of time I think the words in Cantonese, While I translate from English to Chinese words, I need to think that in Cantonese, then change into Chinese. Also there's some people says that Chinese means Cantonese in Hong Kong or Macau. So there's no point to argue that the existence of the Cantonese Wikis or not. Jianglong, please sign your comment using 3 tides (Username or IP) or 4 tides (Username or IP, and the time). --Shinjiman 2006年8月8日 (二) 11:27 (UTC)
  • And note that there's also have slightly differences between the Cantonese grammar and Mandarin grammar, like 「我而家去食啲嘢先」(in Cantonese) is the same meaning of 「我現在先去吃點東西」 (in Mandarin), translated into English means "I will going to eat something first". Like this grammarical usage which cannot used in Mandarin. In the Chinese language wikis, even the grammar like this are impossible to be implemented using the Language Converter. --Shinjiman 2006年8月8日 (二) 11:35 (UTC)
  • Fair enough. I'm OK with Cantonese Wikipedia if there are a number of people like you finding it more difficult to use standard Chinese writing system (even just a little bit). I don't have an account on Cantonese Wikipedia and it seems that I can't logon with accounts on Wikipedias of other languages, so I guess I can't use three or four tides to sign. - Jianglong, 2006年8月8日 (二) 12:45 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 響所加入嘅。
  • Currently all the Wikimedia projects have a seperated login accounts, if you cannot login here, you can create a account yourself. (Why don't consider to create a account here?) However a single login system will be available soon so each user can login to all Wikimedia projects with a single username and password. --Shinjiman 2006年8月8日 (二) 14:46 (UTC)
  • P.S. Whilst you are arguing over this, Min Nam Wha[[1]], with only 222 users, has reached the 1800+ mark.Hillgentleman 2006年8月6日 (日) 18:24 (UTC)
  • I have no comment on that since there are a lot of Min Nam Wha speakers arguing that they are not Chinese and they do not wanna share anything with Chinese. --Jianglong 2006年8月7日 (一) 12:16 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由194.125.53.128 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • Min Nam Wha and Guang Dong Wha are two version of Chinese. There are even more ancient forms of Chinese than the national speech. They resemble the Tang/Song Chinese pronunciation more than the National Speech does. Hillgentleman 2006年8月7日 (一) 16:41 (UTC)
  • Hey, my friend, I can't agree with you more. But some people out there hate to be Chinese and they hate to share ANYTHING with Chinese. They have political motives. Should I try to persuade them? I don't have that much time.Jianglong 2006年8月8日 (二) 03:26 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。
  • Gentlemen, If you have the heart, why don't you write a few more articles in zh.wikipedia.org ? They are currently ranked 12th, whilst ja.wikipedia.org is ranked 5th. Please don't argue. Anything you write here does not count. If each of us write three articles, zh.wikipedia will surpass ja.wikipedia.Hillgentleman 2006年8月7日 (一) 17:04 (UTC)
  • 磨刀不误砍柴工。What I am trying to do here is to persuade a group of great Wikiers who can and will write articles to write articles for zh.wikipedia.org. I am trying to convince them that we should unite and work together efficiently, and make our work more helpful. My point is, no one benefit much from an extra Cantonese Wikipedia while a lot of people would benefit if articles written in Cantonese were written in standard Chinese. OK, I am not going to argue with this any more. And thank you for all your replies. Thanks a lot! Jianglong 2006年8月8日 (二) 03:26 (UTC) —之前未簽名嘅留言係由213.202.167.38 (留言 • 貢獻) 所加入嘅。

我其實又唔介意人遊說人哋要做一樣嘢。不過我就覺得,呢類遊說係無用。假如我淨係中意食叉燒包,你係要叫我食漢堡包,我都唔會因為咁中意食漢堡包,唔去食叉燒包。每個人有佢自己嘅喜好,做乜係都要硬係人做乜你嘅喜好。每樣事都有佢存在嘅理由。成日見到有呢啲反對廣東話維基嘅文章,講來講去都係三幅被:中文維基唔夠人砌,要團結打低其他;廣東話只係可以用來講,唔可以用來寫,係無人會寫,無人會用,中文水準會低落,識寫廣東話都識中文啦云云。咁不如一次過響度講晒。

大佬呀,你估維基百科係用來比賽,超英趕美㗎咩,維基百科係畀大家唔使畀好貴價錢,自由得到知識,自由傳播知識。團結並唔係維基百科原則,自由先至係呀,唔好搞錯。我用乜嘢話來表達係我嘅自由,你用乜嘢話寫係你嘅自由,呢個先係思想自由表現。我之所以用廣東話,係因為呢隻語言可以好容易表達我要表達嘅嘢。限制人哋表達方式,就係限制人哋表達,個文明點會進步。你認為廣東話寫唔到,你家下咪睇到囉。響你生存嘅地方,你可能無乜廣東話作品,又或者你根本唔中意廣東話作品,呢個係你身處社會所限。語言係個人自由選擇,正如無人話一定要你用廣東話或者英文來寫。

近三十年來,有唔少論文係講關於廣東話,你亦都可以多讀關於廣東話文章,多啲認識乜嘢係廣東話。語言係唔停咁變,若然畀一百年前嘅人睇,今日中文維基啲中文一定係差到離晒譜,不知所云。如果要講話寫廣東話會寫中文差,其實都唔成理,因為自細學校教嘅係近代白話文寫法,再加上文言文,係識得分乜嘢係廣東話,乜嘢係白話文,乜嘅係文言文。廣東話寫作係因為佢本身係更加近人要表達嘅意思,更加生動活潑,呢個本來就係好自然。有時有啲人講話廣東話都係中文,但又抗拒廣東話寫入中文,成日就自相矛盾。既然用中文又綁手綁腳,咁不如分開好過喇。事實上每次都好嘥時間答呢啲常見問題,做乜唔寫多啲有建設性嘅嘢,成日煲埋啲無米粥呢?HenryLi 2006年8月14日 (一) 04:46 (UTC)

我好同意henry既講法, 仲有我唔明點解大家都係中國人, 傾計個時要寫英文? 同埋咩唔夠人砌個d好大喜功心態就收埋佢啦, 成日講埋d 咁既無聊野不如譯多幾篇野好過啦, 哂氣。 Meaningless 2006年10月28日 (六) 16:37 (UTC)

[編輯] 香港維基媒體協會

香港維基媒體協會而家正搞緊初步的會員召募,歡迎有意加入的維基人在此簽名。同時,香港維基媒體協會籌備委員會將於日內舉行第一次會議,有意加入籌備委員會的維基人,可搵我了解詳情。希望大家能為推廣維基一齊努力。--encyclopedist (對話頁) 2006年8月31日 (四) 16:04 (UTC)

[編輯] 總算有咗微軟出嘅香港粵語輸入法啦

從微軟Office 2007提取出來
用嘅係「香港語言學學會粵語拼音方案」,不過喺方便性上總是覺得比唔上微軟拼音輸入法呢~XD--翔風Sasuke有事搵我*^-^* 2006年11月26日 (日) 18:43 (UTC)

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