Wikipedia talk:Hū secge ic
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[ādihtan] Professions
- to study: cneordlǽcan
- a study, discipline: cneordlǽcnes [Latin: studium, disciplina]; [thus anthropology, the study of man would be manncneordlǽcnes.]
No, this does not mention what is studied.
B&T says: "cneord-læ-acute;can; p. -læ-acute;hte; pp. -læ-acute;ht To 'be diligent, study; studere, M. H. 14a. DER. ge-cneordlæ-acute;can." Literally, this means the action of being diligent, zealous. It does not mean to study something. It means that a student is being trained (disciplina), and not "investigate a topic."
"Manncneordlǽcnes," if it existed, would mean "man-dilligence," or "man-training." It could not mean "studying man."
--Walda 02:14, 20 Mǽdmónaþ 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] New Words
I made some new ones under Technology. I picked Dáh (dough) for mass, which appears in B&T and which is related to the history of the word "mass," and certainly suggests the stuff of which things are made. Mot is atom.
New Words in Physical Science
Gemot is molecule, since atoms together form molecules. Elmot for isotope, it is a "strange atom," which is pretty accurate (it is neuter since it has an altered number of neut-rons). Elmote for ions; it is feminine since it is an atom with altered number of electrons. I have made electrons feminine, which is important since chemistry works by the combining numbers of electrons and protons, negative and positive. So, assigning gender here is natural and helpful.
The proton is Steorrla, a little star. This pretty much describes it, since the nucleus has little electrons spinning around it like planets around a star. It is traditional to describe the atom like a tiny solar system. And a star is a good metaphor of energy. Neutron is Steorrel (neuter); it has strong declension, since it holds most of an atom's mass, and Steorrla is weak masculine. Now here's the best of all: an electron is Spærclu, a little spark. Not only does this fit with what it is, it fits with my system here. That gives Spærclecræft, electricity, the power of the electron. Note that this also fits neatly with ordinary observable reality: electricity gives off sparks. It also provides an easy base for all technical compounds involving electricity: spærcle-. I think the suffix -el is preferable to -incel, which would make too many syllables; also a less common diminutive suggests that this is special nomenclature.
Also, I formed fýrramm (fire+ram = torpedo), lyftwægn and some others.
I marked the words which are new words. If I missed a real existing OE word, please correct the new words. I avoided rendering jargon into OE, root for root, for the sake of simplicity, clarity and a more natural form of the word.
Who ever thought that ang.Wikipedia would be inspiration for poetry?
--Walda 18:55, 27 Sér 2005 (UTC)
- As for electron, it's Greek for 'amber', which we have in OE as 'glær' or 'eolhsand' or 'smeltung'. Perhaps 'glærmot' - amber-speck? Also, I've asked some people about the Icelandic words for:
- róteind - proton
- rafeind - electron
- nifteind - neutron
- fareind - ion
- sameind - molecule
- samsæta - isotope
- So, I'll let everyone know how that goes.
--James 00:38, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
- raf- means electric, and the English word 'electric' comes from electrum, a Greek word meaning 'amber', and -eind means 'unit', so we could possibly do glæránhád or glærmet. Sam- means together, just as in OE, so a molecule is a together unit. Samgemot possibly? --James 01:02, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
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- This is interesting, but I don't don't know why we need to replicate a word's history. "Electric" comes from the observation in 1600 that "electrum," or amber, could attract lightwieght objects when rubbed, but I don't see where glær ever was linked to that behavior. Here's what the OED says:
- electric [ad. mod.L. lectric-us, f. L. lectr-um, Gr. amber: see ELECTR-UM and -IC. The mod.L. word seems to have been first used by W. Gilbert in his treatise De Magnete, 1600.]
- Gilbert did not understand electricity very well at all, and did not know what to call the tiny force he saw. So he just called it "electric force," or "force from amber." Of course, this is a misnomer since electricity does not derive from amber anyway. Electron2 derives from "electric." This is a history of a greek word, not the history of Old English glær. It's very interesting, though.
- This is interesting, but I don't don't know why we need to replicate a word's history. "Electric" comes from the observation in 1600 that "electrum," or amber, could attract lightwieght objects when rubbed, but I don't see where glær ever was linked to that behavior. Here's what the OED says:
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- I am not sure what "root unit" is supposed to mean. The main part of the atom? That would be misleading, since it is now known that the neutron carries more mass.
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- ON raf, rafr, ráf, ráfr don't have cognates in English, at least according to Jan DeVries' Altnordisches Etymologishes Wörterbuch.
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- There's no nif in ON. Maybe Ice. nif comes from nifl or nef? If it's nef, then nefeind might mean "related unit." Related to what?
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- sam is an Old Norse word; it's an early loan. "Together unit" I think is a bit repetive, and it's vague, since there are a lot of things that come together.
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- sam- is also a prefix for OE, meaning 'together' --James 06:06, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
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- From B&T:
- ge-, a preposition, originally meaning with, but found only as a prefix. v. Schleicher, Die Deutsche Sprache, p. 224. In accordance with this meaning it often gives a collective sense to nouns to which it is prefixed, as, ge-bróðor brothers; ge-húsan housefolk...
- From B&T:
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- And it is often attached to words with no change in meaning to the word itself, see Old English Made Easy. --James 06:06, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
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- Thus, I think that sam-ge-mot would be redundant.
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- "Eind" is vague, too, since it says nothing about each particle's place in the structure of the atom. I would guess that the Icelandic words were invented by research scientists, not by linguists or poets. They probably named them before anyone fully understood their function or an atom's structure.
--Walda 02:17, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
- "Eind" is vague, too, since it says nothing about each particle's place in the structure of the atom. I would guess that the Icelandic words were invented by research scientists, not by linguists or poets. They probably named them before anyone fully understood their function or an atom's structure.
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- [R. Moxham] Dude, Icelandic language policy is so prescriptive that the language board would probably have executed any scientist who had come up with what the language board considered an inadequate name for a particle!! School children used to be persecuted over there if they showed any sign of a non-Reykjavik accent. (I'm glad to say the policy hasn't wholly worked, and that there is still at least one main accent apart from the more or less standard Reykjavik one.)
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- Also, I don't really see why the name of any object should describe it in any semantic respect. That's precisely the sort of policy that led the Icelandic establishment to attempt to dub the kiwi fruit the "fur-berry" or "hair-berry" ("loðber") before everybody realised how gross that was. (Now people there just call it "kíví".) Also, the Icelandic linguistic establishment used the same policy to invent a translation for "computer" that, if anything, means something like "number-witch" and, apart from being confusingly dissimilar to any other European name for the computer, also includes such a strange mutation in Icelandic that half the young population is apparently not competent to decline the word in the standard way anyhow. The word for telephone is "sími", which is supposed to represent linguistic conservatism as this was an ON word that meant something like "cable". I say "was" and "meant" because I'm on the side of the many linguists who, whilst admiring the thoroughness of the Icelandic linguistic establishment in some ways, think that the end result is not so much an ancient language in a fine state of repair as some sort of weird greenhouse hybrid, or a jumble preserved in aspic.
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- In any case, making neologisms semantically transparent isn't even the only way they've gone about things in Iceland. I remember reading an 18th or 19th century Icelandic travelogue whose author decided to invent a word for "orchestra". He decided on "orrakista", because it sounded something like "orchestra", even though it could be construed as meaning something like "roar-chest" or "roar-coffin". There are probably many other ways to go about integrating neologisms into a language (even a highly inflected one like Icelandic), but the choice we make is nothing more than a matter of taste. It's purely arbitrary. Another thing that's generally more arbitrary than Icelandic linguistic policy has recognised is the natural development of language. If every word in a language had to be semantically transparent... well, where would we start?
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- James- I commend your thoroughness. --Walda 15:39, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Iudeisc/Iydisc & co
Giese, mid rímum sceoldon wé wrítan in manigfealdlicre ágniendlicre gebígednesse. Tó bisene: 30 wintra, 40 daga, 50 géara, asf. --James 15:12, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Francland is the name for France according to Sweet. Is there an attestation for Francríce or is that just a translation based on Frankreich/Frankrike? If it's the latter then we should go with Francland. If both are attested then we could use either but should adopt a consistent approach.
- For "Frisian", the OE form should be "Friesisc". (For the region, "Friesland".)
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- It's Frisisc and the people are Frisan and the land is Fresland. --James 00:46, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
- "Irland" and "Iraland" are both found.
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- with long I, Írland--James 00:46, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
- "Weallas" is "Wales". (I don't know why the vowel stem is different from "wiellisc".)
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- wiellisc shows umlaut of the 'ea' of the word weallas. Umlaut is a favorite in OE, just as in German and other Germanic languages. --James 00:46, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
- Suggestion for "Yiddish": "Iudeisc" (which also means "Jewish"). The word "Yiddish" derives from the German word for "Jewish". We don't want to have to use "Iidisc".--Rjp08773 20:42, 2 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
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- We could use Giddisc or Gíed(d)isc... --James 00:46, 29 Sér 2005 (UTC)
I was one of those using Francríce, as an analog of Frankreich; I don't know whether it appears in literature. As for Iudeisc for Yiddish, there are two issues with this:
- In modern German, 'Jewish' (jüdisch) is distinguished from 'Yiddish' (jiddisch). That they have the same etymology does not mean necessarily that we should translate both to Iudeisc.
- There are quite a number of Jewish languages (see en:Jewish languages), so giving prominence to a particular one with the name 'Jewish language' is a bit questionable. In particular I wonder if there is some other language whose name etymologically means "Jewish language", so 'Iudeisc geþéode' would be ambiguous.
--Saforrest 21:55, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
- It seems that both Francland and Francríce are recorded: see Bosworth & Toller page 347 and Bosworth & Toller page 348. Francland seems the more popular use, though. Saforrest 19:30, 14 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Compound place-names (with compass directions)
I'd like to suggest that instead of "Norð America" we should say "Norðamerica" in line with practice in most Germanic languages and the general practice of Old English: Norðsǽ Norðrodor (north sky) Norðhealf (north side) Norðende (north end) Norðwind (north wind) and similarly with other compass points - better not to leave a space. Rícaheard 20:53, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
- Sounds fine to me. --Saforrest 21:55, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Landbox
As mentioned previously the landbox at Englaland is quite different from that of Swéoland. I was responsible for some of the duplication, but other doublets were there already. We ought to choose the best translations so that we can make all the pages consistent.
Þéodlic cwide OR Cynelic gecwide (OK, it might be that we use both of these, one being the national motto, and the other the royal motto, according to whether or not the country is a monarchy)
Ambihtlic geþéode OR Þénunglice geþéode (official languages)
Heafodburg OR Cynesetl (capital - I have a preference for heafordburg, since cynesetl also means "throne" - some countries are monarchies, others not)
Gríeteste burg
Cyning
Forma minister
Landwaru
þicnes (density)
GHP (GDP)
Tæl tósamne (total)
Mynetslege OR Feoh (currency - I prefer mynetslege, since feoh is a bit vague)
Tidzona OR Tidscéat (timezone - I think tidscéat is better here)
Unification (not translated) OR Geánode
Þéodlic antefn OR Rícesang
Internet TLD (no translation yet)
Landcysttæl (i.e. country dialling code) --Rícaheard 22:16, 5 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Names of countries
Just thought I'd mention that someone else has put some thought into the names of countries in Englisc (as mentioned on the Englisc list): LAND ÞISRE WORULDE --Saforrest 00:26, 6 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks. Could be useful. We should make use of it, but with caution as we may disagree with him in some areas (e.g. we are using Niðerland in preference to Neðerland), and he doesn't mark vowel lengths. Still, he has a number of translations we haven't got and there are things to consider (e.g. Poland, and others where he claims an AS source for a different name from ours). Rícaheard 01:01, 6 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
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- Also, the Dutch use their word in 2 differing contexts. The singular Niderland is for their country, and the plural is used to refer to the older country, the 17 provinces including stuff now in Belgium. --James 17:36, 3 Winterfylleþ 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Scop
On a couple of the day or year pages, I've seen 'poet' translated as scop. I think there are a lot of differences between our notion of a poet and the Anglo-Saxon notion of a scop, so we should find another word for 'poet', and reserve scop for either:
- an Anglo-Saxon scop, as the term is generally understood, or
- a poet/storyteller following a nonliterate oral tradition, not necessarily Anglo-Saxon or even Germanic, which shares with the Anglo-Saxon tradition an importance placed on oral delivery and reshaping of previous material as well as original composition.
Any suggestions for 'poet' or 'poetry'? Something relating to léoð might do. --Saforrest 00:45, 8 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Disambiguation
Any suggestions for a translation for 'disambiguation'? Scírung is my suggestion, from scíran 'to make clear (by distinguishing between things)'. So scírungtramet would be 'disambiguation page'. --Saforrest 18:19, 12 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
[ādihtan] Nationalities
I just added a list of names of people by nationality. I'd like to have some noun forms for people on hand, to make translating "the French beat the English at ..." easier.
Some questions:
- German (people): I suggested Þéode since the adjective is Þéodisce, but Þéode (with the plural ending) was used to mean Gentiles in Bible translations. This could make talking about German-Jewish relations in, say, the Nazi era very weird.
- French (people): Francan means Franks, but most Germanic languages distinguish French from Franks, e.g. German Franzosen 'Frenchmen' and Franken 'Franks'.
- Estonians: I'd rather not use Este as Estonian, as the Este was a Germanic tribe which happened to inhabit the region historically, and is distinct from the present Finno-Ugric speaking nation. They're connected etymologically, but that's all.
- For others, can we think of some standard way to form a plural noun referring to citizens of a country, from the country name?
--Saforrest 11:16, 19 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
For nationalities, i.e. the people as a whole, we could try the -e or -an or -as plurals, as all were acceptable in OE, though the -e was the oldest used (Dene, Engle, Este, etc.). I think I also saw the -isc adjective used here as well, i.e. þá Frenciscan. --James 21:25, 30 Sér 2005 (UTC)